My response to Dr. B's email regarding whether the rich man and Lazarus is a parable or not and if it proves the existence of a literal eternal torture chamber called hell!
My comments are in Blue.
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You said;
First off, the rich man and Lazarus is a parable in a long line of parable by Christ. It is not literal.
Let me prove to you how wrong you are!
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My comment:
"All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them..." (Mat. 13:34).
Luke 15 & 16 are five parables in a row without separation.
Luke 15: 3 So he told them this parable: 4(E) "What man of you, having a hundred sheep...
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Here's where you and many others are so wrong Zacman;
Parables NEVER; ever; never; ever give "CERTAIN" names of people!
No where in any other of Jesus' parables did He give certain names to people!
Can't find one!
Maybe in one of those manmade altered bibles!
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My comment:
Luke 16
1And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man
This is the parable preceding the rich man and Lazarus Dr. B. Obviously the Pharisees knew Christ was using this parable of a Certain rich man to expose them as covetous.
Luke 16: 14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God's sight.
And just where is it that says Parables can never have certain names? Who made up those rules Dr. B?
Mark 4:15 Mentions Satan
Matt. 13:37 Mentions The Son of man
Matt. 13:39 Mentions The devil
Matt. 15:13 Mentions God the Father
II Sam. 12:7 Is said to be King David
Ezek. 23:1-4 Mentions Aholah and Aholibah
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A part of the story may have a metaphoric meaning!
But that doesn't make the story not real!
What is a Metaphor?
"A figure of speech in which a WORD or PHRASE that ordinarily designates one THING is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison"
"One THING conceived as representing another; a symbol"
Like
The comparison was this!
In the Gospel of Luke 16:22); Abraham's Bosom is a Metaphor for the place where the just enjoy the peace of Heaven after death!
Remember; God's covernant for salvation was with Abraham!
The Apostles could relate to Abraham!
People want to deny it's a real story because of the phrase Abrahams Bosom!
"Abraham's bosom" is a kind of Heaven (the abode of God and the angels)
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My Comment:
But Dr. B. Hebrews 11 tells us specifically Abraham has not yet gone to Heaven and received his reward!
Heb. 11 8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance,....
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
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At the time Jesus told this story; NO ONE had entrance into Heaven. All that had died from Adam up until the Cross and Resurrection could not get into Heaven.
Jesus told the thief "today you will be with ME in PARADISE! The place with the gulf fixed between those who died believers and those who did not believe! Jesus had to rise in three days before He ascended into Heaven! So the saved thief was in PARADISE like Lazarus was until then!
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My Comment:
Jesus told the thief, This I say to you today, you Will be with me in paradise.
John 20:17, where Christ says to Mary Magdalene (three days after His crucifixion), "I have not yet ascended to My Father."
Are you trying to tell me God the Father isn't in the paradise you believe in?
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Definition of "CERTAIN"
1: "Free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure"!
2: "Established as TRUE or SURE; unquestionable; indisputable"
FACT!
Jesus said; there were two "CERTAIN men", and gave us one of their names!
These men were in REAL places! Spiritual but real!
One man was with Abraham who we know is also REAL!
The other man saw Abraham and Lazarus together!
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My comment:
1. (adj) certain(a)
definite but not specified or identified
"Notice next the introduction of the third, fourth, and fifth parables:
"A CERTAIN MAN..." (15:11)
"There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN..." (16:1).
"There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN..." (16:19).
Again, it is clear that these are THREE parables of a five-part parable! " (quote from bibletruths.com)
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When Jesus told parables to HIS disciples; they needed interpretation in order to understand the meaning! Luke 16 needs NO interpretation!
The two "CERTAIN men" died and went into two different places!
One received Salvation; the other didn't!
Abraham and Lazarus was in a real place!
The rich man was in a real place!
One had eternal joy; peace and happiness!
The other had eternal Damnation!
All three men had all their senses!
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My comment:
Dr. B.
Needs no interpretation? Christ said his words were spirit and spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
The rich man had "eternal joy peace and happiness" even though he could communicate with someone who was being tortured in your supposed hell? Are you kidding me Dr.? How could anyone be at peace just knowing, let alone being able to hear someone in that kind of unspeakable torture?
"The other had eternal damnatiojn?" The judgment hasn't even taken place yet, he is damn eternally before even having been judged?
Among the obvious reason most scholars refer to this story as a parable another important one to understand is there were very common FABLES in Jewish tradition which spoke of a person in the Egyptian and Greek Hades/underworld. It would be the equivalent to telling a parable today using the analogy of Alice in Wonderland.
As for the obvious reasons, just thing rationally for a minute.
Could you carry on a conversation with someone for even a few seconds with just your finger over the flame of a candle? I think not. But you want us to believe the rich man could have a lengthy conversation with Abraham while his ENTIRE body was being consumed by fire! Come on Dr.
As I stated before, do you really think Abraham and Lazarus could communicate with those being tortured in real fire? Not only is this unbelievable, but how in the world could they stand listening to these people being tortured! That in itself would be torture Dr.!
While we are on it, why did the rich man only ask for a drop of water on his tongue? Anyone burning in real fire is going to naturally want it put out, not a single drop of water on the tongue for crying out loud. Obviously this has deeper meaning by referencing the tongue.
I think it's no coincidence Lazarus is a man Christ literally rose from the dead. Notice Christ called him out of the tomb, he didn't call him back from Paradise. Christ said he was dead, not that he had gone to Paradise.
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Parable? Only ignorant people think so!
God says; "CERTAINLY"
"Let every man be a liar and God be TRUE!
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My Comment:
Dr. B. "only ignorant people"? The vast majority of biblical scholars, even those who are the majority who believe in this hell of yours think this is a parable.
Here is just a brief synopsis of what the parable is alluding to:
" 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:"
The color purple represents royalty as in "Judah" representing the Jews. Fine linen represents wealth. The Jews had been given a wealth of spiritual knowledge but as a whole denied Christ.
"20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,"
The poor beggar represents the Gentiles who where poor in the knowledge of the Lord. They were at the "gate" of the Jews desirous but they Jews wouldn't share the wealth of knowledge of the Lord with them because they were vain thinking they were in need of nothing. Obviously the Pharisees took this parable as a personal slam.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
The rich man even states he is desirous for his family to "repent" Is that the attitude of an unrepented person?
There is much more that can be learned from understanding this parable, we could go on for pages here, but it is obvious that this is not a real scenario.
Using a parable to create the most horrific doctrine that God finds it necessary to torture the vast majority of his creation in a literal fire for endless ages just shows how far the human mind will go to defend themselves in contrast to the rest of humanity.
May God enlighten you to His Love for All.
John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
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end of Zac's comments
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Dr. B replies to me before I send the above response to his previous email.
Dr. B. I was just getting ready to reply to your previous email where you tried to defend the rich man and Lazarus as a literal story instead of a parable. I decided to briefly answer this response and save the longer answer to your previous email for tomorrow.
Here is your latest email with my response in the Comments sections.
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From Dr. B. to Zacman
You asked'
Where is it stated that it is too late after this life?
From all the crying(vs24) and begging(vs27) the rich man did; did he save himself?
There was no escape! Luke 16:26
Here is the answer to your question!
In Luke 16
While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances.
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My comment:
First Dr. B. the rich man didn't "face judgment"! He immediately goes to hades in this parable without ever being judged. Judgment is yet future as I hope you understand.
Second, where is it you find judgment is only to set out a punishment instead of a corrective chastisement?
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It's like after the fact!
God don't play games!
No where can you read where God says you get a final last chance after death!
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My comment:
Is. 26:9 ;;;When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
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If that was the case Zacman; people would not have to live rightous or repent. they could continue sinning knowing that they had one last chance after death! Of course when they see God; what you think their gonna do? Play angel! That would be hypocritical and deceiving! Live a life of sin; then get saved after death? PLEASE!
God will not be Mocked zacman!
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My comment:
Just what exactly do you think the judgment of the house of God now is accomplishing Dr. B? It's destroying our Carnal nature, isn't it? Through many trials, tribulations, suffering etc. we learn Godliness.
Why do you think Paul speaks about being tried by fire. Or that the fiery trials that come upon us should be no surprise? Fire refines Dr. B. It's figurative of correction.
Do you think humanity will instantly become righteous in judgment? Think again! The Saints will judge the world, and that likely will take a very long time. It will be very painful for some of the most Carnal minds. Look what some of the Saints went through in this age.
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That's exactly what the rich man thought! "A SECOND chance"!
Man says; you have another chance after you die.
God says; after death the judgement!
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Yes, and thank God when his judgments are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness!
Is. 26:9
Zac
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Another email replay from Dr. B.
Dr. B.
I will answer your email with my comments in after your statements.
BTW, did you know putting ! points after each sentence makes it look like your shouting?
Why are you shouting, what I've said and quoted is bothering you?
OK, here goes, what you've said warrants my comments:
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Zacman; your getting it Twisted!
I said what God says!
There is No SECOND chances for unrepented sinners and those who deny Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior!
Romans 10:9 makes it CLEAR!
Without confession and repentance there is no forgiveness of sins!
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My Comment:
Every knee will bow (repentance) and tongue confess Christ is Lord (confession) to the Glory of the Father Phil 2:4)
Obviously this is done after death and judgment for most, what about this don't you understand?
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If you die in your sin/sins; there is no salvation!
Atheist who die Atheist; go to Hell!
Those who die in their sins;go to Hell!
God said it not me!
You can twist it all you want to. God said it!
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My Comment
You keep saying God said it. But frankly Dr. B. God said no such thing. Hell is an English word, there is no such place in the Bible except for a pagan Hades which was a common Fable in Jewish tradition.
Sheol - Heb. and Hades - Greek, both mean the unseen, unperceived, and represent the grave.
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Those who die without ever hearing about Jesus Christ; never had a chance!
That's different! It's Gods call!
With world wide satellites; not that many parts of the world haven't.
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My Comment:
Are you joking Dr. B. "with world wide satellites?" You've never been to a third world country have you?
Plus, plus, you just disregard the thousands of years before modern transportation and communication where Billions and Billions and Billions of people died in their sins and in their carnal state without EVER hearing about Christ or the Bible.
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God doesn't throw infants and children in Hell!
Mentally disturbed people can't make choices of reason!
God's call! Most likely they will not be held responsible!'
Their sick!
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My Comment: MOST LIKELY???? they will not be held responsible? What kind of scholarship is that? You claim to be an Evangelist/Educator?
Dr. B. I agree infants, children, mentally handicapped , etc. will be converted from their carnal natures and bow to and confess Christ as Savior and Lord to the Glory of the Father.
But, BUT, they will still have to go throw a corrective judgment in order to be converted from their inherent CARNAL nature! Can't you see and understand that?
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Again!
There is No SECOND chances for unrepented sinners; Atheist; and those who deny Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior!
Show me where the Bible says after death one can be saved.
NOT BIBLICAL Zacman!
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Dr. B. I've already showed you that everyone will bow and confess Christ.
I've shown you that no one can call Christ Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
I've shown you that judgment that Begins with God's house is corrective and if it Begins and continues with the world is must have the same result.
I've shown you that when God's judgments are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.
I've shown you that over and over and over again fire is a symbol for refinement, correction, and salvation. (saved as through fire 1 Cor 3:15)
I've shown you that there will be no more pain, crying, death etc.for the former things have past away. (Rev. 21) How can this be if billions and billions are being tortured in your hell forever?
I've shown you that when Christ has put all things under him (conquered death) God will be All in All. That's All in Everyone Dr. B. (1 Cor 15:12-24)
I could show you pages and pages of more evidence, but if you don't believe the plain evidence I've already shown you....
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The Rich man tried for a second chance in Hell!
He was too late. He was out his earth body!
Let's not twist my words and Gods!
I've given you the word of God.
It is what it is! You can't change it.
Over and out!
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My Final Comment:
The rich man wanted to go back and warn his brothers about judgment. He called Abraham Father. Abraham called him his child.
You are basing your belief in a literal fiery endless torture chamber for the vast majority of
God's human creation on a passage in the bible that is preceded directly without separation from 4 other parables.
I will now answer you email that defends the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus as a literal event. Once you see that it can't possibly be taken literally but does have a definite meaning the Pharisees understood was speaking about them hopefully the scriptural evidence that judgment will set things right between God and mankind.
BTW, Dr. B. just for your information, believing the truth that their is no hell doesn't make one a non believer or unrepented sinner you know. We just understand God's Love and True Character from a biblical perspective. :)
May You come to see His Love Too!
Zac
Watch this video for a complete discussion showing all will be saved.
For a complete Commentary on The Rich Man And Lazarus Click this link.
May God show you His true love for all mankind,
Zac
God tells you in Luke 16 that after death it's too late to change!